Amazon DSP is a game-changer, but not everyone knows how to leverage it effectively. Sam Lee, VP of Amazon DSP at Trivium Group, shares insider knowledge on what works, what doesn’t, and how to scale your ad campaigns strategically. Whether you’re ready to boost your Amazon sales or curious about advanced advertising tactics, this episode is packed with actionable insights for every seller.
Listen:
Watch:
What is Amazon DSP and Who Should Use It?
Sam Lee breaks down the basics of Amazon DSP (Demand Side Platform) and who can benefit from it. Learn why this programmatic advertising tool is ideal for sellers who have reached a plateau in PPC performance and are looking for advanced targeting options to scale further.
Key Metrics for Launching DSP Ads
Discover the importance of meeting specific thresholds—like a minimum of 100 reviews and $15,000-$20,000 in monthly PPC ad spend—before investing in Amazon DSP. Sam explains why jumping in too early can hurt your bottom line and how to test DSP efficiently.
Advanced Targeting: Custom Audiences and Contextual Ads
Sam reveals the power of creating custom-curated audiences and the significance of contextual targeting. Learn how to target buyers immediately to maximize conversions and avoid wasting impressions on uninterested shoppers.
Amazon Marketing Cloud (AMC): Unlocking Holistic Data
Find out how AMC integrates PPC and DSP data to provide actionable insights, such as how display ads affect your sponsored product conversion rates. Sam also shares tips for using AMC data effectively—and why pulling data without action is a waste of time.
Resources From This Episode
- Sam Lee’s Contact Information
• Email: sam.l@triviumco.com
• LinkedIn: Sam Lee – Trivium Group - Trivium Group
Full-service Amazon advertising agency specializing in PPC and DSP campaigns. Learn more at Trivium Group’s Website. - Tools and Software:
• Amazon Marketing Cloud (AMC): Data aggregation platform for PPC and DSP insights.
• Trade Desk: Comprehensive programmatic advertising tool.
• Tech Partners: X-Mars and Pacvue for leveraging AMC without SQL knowledge. - DSP-Ready Thresholds:
Minimum ad spend: $15,000-$20,000/month on PPC
Product review baseline: 100+ reviews per ASIN - Books and Resources:
Explore more on audience-based advertising strategies and e-commerce growth through Amazon’s Seller University.
In Conclusion
Amazon DSP is a powerful tool for scaling your e-commerce business, but it’s not for everyone. As Sam highlights, knowing when to use DSP and how to optimize it is key to maximizing your ROI. Start with PPC, reach the $15K threshold, and then leverage DSP for advanced targeting and audience engagement. If you’re ready to elevate your brand, consider partnering with experts like Trivium Group.
Ready to dive deeper? Reach out to Sam Lee or explore Amazon Marketing Cloud to unlock your brand’s full potential.
Transcript
[00:00:00:58 – 00:00:00:25] TEASER
Okay. So sub a hundred reviews. Don’t touch it ever. If you have a product, let’s say that has 2000 reviews and you’re launching a new one that has 200, we can target people that have bought that and serve them your new product because they’re not going to be reviewed. That’s fine. But if your premier product is sub a hundred reviews, Do not touch DSP. There’s no reason to it’s absolutely not worth your time.
[00:00:00:25 – 00:00:00:45] INTRO
Welcome fellow entrepreneurs to the Amazon sellers school podcast, where we talk about Amazon and how you can use it to build an e-commerce empire. A side hustle and anything in between. And now your host, Todd Welch.
[00:00:00:45 – 00:00:01:40] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
What’s going on, everybody? Welcome to another episode. We’ve got Sam Lee on today. He’s the vice president of Amazon DSP over at Trivium Group, where he’s been for three years, but he’s been doing Amazon DSP for over five years and has managed hundreds of millions of dollars worth of ads for a lot of large brands out there. So today we’re going to be diving into, you know, what Amazon DSP is. Ads are and why you should be doing it. Who should be doing it, all of that great stuff. So this is going to be a really good one. I’m going to enjoy this one as well, because I’m going to be learning right along with everybody. I am far from an expert on DSP. So, uh, Sam, I really appreciate you joining the show.
[00:00:01:40 – 00:00:02:16] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
Yeah. I mean, I would say that Amazon DSP, it’s one of the, definitely the less understood components of the whole Amazon ecosystem, right? I’ve been doing it for years. And in reality, I build my business on helping agencies sell Amazon DSP. Which agencies are supposed to know, like both PPC and DSP and they’re supposed to know everything, but they really, even agencies don’t know Amazon DSP as well as they should. So it’s definitely a mystery still within the Amazon ecosystem.
[00:00:02:16 – 00:00:02:25] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Yeah, for sure. So why don’t we start off just by telling everybody exactly what is Amazon DSP?
[00:00:02:25 – 00:00:03:08] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
Demand side platform. So there’s actually in, in classic Amazon fashion, there’s two Amazon DSPs, Amazon delivery service provider. So I get messages maybe two, three times a week about people that are looking to get into, it’s essentially Uber for Amazon. That’s a delivery service provider. Demand side platform is Amazon DSP. That’s one we’re going to talk about and it’s programmatic advertising. So it’s audience based display, advertising, video advertising, but it’s very different from Amazon’s, uh, delivery service provider offering, but they’re both DSPs.
[00:00:03:08 – 00:00:03:24] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
I’ve ran into the same problem when, uh, talking with people about AWD, you know, cause obviously when people say AWD, most people think of all wheel drive vehicle.
[00:00:03:24 – 00:00:03:32] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
That’s essentially, yeah, it’s the same thing, but Amazon should really differentiate if they, if they knew what they were doing, but they don’t care.
[00:00:03:32 – 00:00:03:51] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Yeah, for sure. So. When you say display advertising and, and video advertising and such, that’s on like TV and other platforms like that. We’re not talking about. Similar ads to like product display ads and things like that.
[00:00:03:52 – 00:00:04:54] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
No, we are actually, we’re talking very similar to product display ads. So sponsor display within the PPC platform is I would call it like DSP junior. So you can, you can place display ads via sponsor display via PPC. And that’s more or less the same thing. But once you start spending more, you have a lot more control if you actually utilize Amazon DSP. The way that I usually like to use it is we start on Amazon and we create audiences based on how people browse, how they purchase, whatever it is on Amazon, and then we can expand to off Amazon. But if you, if you’ve run Amazon PPC ads in your familiar response or display, it’s basically the same thing, except. Amazon DSP is just a little bit more comprehensive. So once you’ve scaled your PPC spend enough, then from sponsor display to Amazon DSP, like that’s the, that’s the pipeline that makes the most sense.
[00:00:04:54 – 00:00:04:58] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Okay. So after you maximize what you can do inside of
[00:00:04:58 – 00:00:05:15] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
Spending at least 15 to 20 K on VPC, then DSP is not for you once you get that borderline. And as long as you have like over a hundred reviews, then maybe, maybe DSP is for you, but it, it, you have to hit that point.
[00:00:05:15 – 00:00:05:23] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Yeah. And it’s not available for just everyone, right? Not everyone can log into Seller Central and look at. Amazon DSP.
[00:00:05:23 – 00:00:05:46] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
Yeah, that’s the other annoying part of it is you either have to go with a tech partner who charges a percentage that typically a percentage of ad spend, or you have to like usually it’s like 100k. It’s a moving target anywhere from 50 to 100k a month to get your own seat. So you have to work with an agency or a tech partner if you want to access Amazon DSP.
[00:00:05:46 – 00:00:05:51] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Okay. Uh, you said fif 1500 to get access to it?
[00:00:05:51 – 00:00:05:52] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
50 to a hundred K.
[00:00:05:52 – 00:00:05:53] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
50 to a hundred K. Okay.
[00:00:05:54 – 00:00:06:12] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
Yeah. The reason I can’t give you an actual number is because it’s not consistent. Like if you email Amazon, whoever it is, support@amazon.com and say, I want a DS PC, it’s gonna be a different answer every time. But I would say 50 to a hundred thousand a month.
[00:00:06:12 – 00:00:06:23] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Okay. Got it. So, and so that is something that trivium. Is paying to Amazon just to have access to create Amazon DSP ads.
[00:00:06:24 – 00:00:06:37] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
Well, the difference is that because we work across a number of brands, we hit that minimum. Yep. So like, I actually don’t think any of our brands are spending 50, 000 a month, maybe one.
[00:00:06:37 – 00:00:06:41] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. So it’s not like a fee. It’s just a minimum that you have to hit
[00:00:06:41 – 00:00:07:25] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
To be able to get your own seat. You have to spend 50, 000 a month. And then across all of our clients, like, let’s say we have 5, 000 a month for us, 10 clients, we hit 50, 000 a month. So we have around, but unless you want to really commit that large amount of money out of the gate, which I don’t recommend. Then it makes more sense to work with a partner. If you grow that to the point where it’s like, okay, we’re already spending 50, 000 a month and it’s profitable, then you could probably get your own seat. But before then it’s in aggregate due to the fact that we’re an agency, our clients add up to over 50, 000 a month. So that’s why we have our own.
[00:00:07:25 – 00:00:07:35] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
You’re going to probably want to be working with a professional. Anyways, you know, whether it’s working with an agency like you guys or hiring someone to, to manage that,
[00:00:07:35 – 00:00:08:53] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
I would just say that the main problem with Amazon DSP is that due to the fact that there’s this misconception about minimum ad spend, so many brands don’t try it.Right. It’s like, 000 a month, that’s, that’s a big commitment. Like if I owned a brand, which I actually, I do, I would never go for that because It’s a big bet at the end of the day. Like it’s, and if you lose, you lose 50, 000. So like, I would never do that. That being said, a 5, 000 bed, seeing if DSP works for you, seeing if you, if it increases your top line, like that makes sense. So. Working with an agency, at least to start. And then if it works and you scale five to 10 to 20 to 30, and then you are comfortable spending 50, 000 a month and you can get your own seat, then by all means do it, but you should test it out at 5, 000 a month before you, I’m just sick of seeing brands lose money. Like a 5, 000 bet in reality is not that much, a 50, 000 like bet, just to test out DSP, that’s, that’s a lot of money, man. Like, I don’t. I would never make that bet. I don’t care what the platform is.
[00:00:08:53 – 00:00:09:00] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Yeah, for sure. Unless you’re a giant like. Coca Cola or something that, you know, 50, 000, that’s nothing
[00:00:09:00 – 00:00:09:10] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
For Unilever. And they, their one KPI was, did we spend all the money? It’s like, yeah, you don’t want to hear about performance now. Okay. All right.
[00:00:09:10 – 00:00:09:18] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Well, that’s gotta be a kind of a fun, fun kind of client. To deal with, you just got to spend those people.
[00:00:09:19 – 00:00:09:35] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
Yeah, it’s cause it’s an easy client, but they didn’t want to hear about results. I’m a bottom line guy. Like I prefer like when my clients increase their actual profit. So it was actually, I hate it with them, honestly.
[00:00:09:35 – 00:00:09:50] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
So what. What are the actual differences that people would see that would tempt them to, you know, try Amazon DSP versus just spending more money on Amazon ad console?
[00:00:09:50 – 00:00:11:39] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
It’s usually when you start to see any form of downturn in bottom line profits. What I mean by that is like, You spent 10K on PPC ads and you made bottom line, let’s say 3K. You spent 15 and you still made 3K. Typically what I recommend to brands is scale PPC as high as you can. The way that I look at it is basically put every dollar you can into PPC until you start to see some sort of diminishing return, right? Like if I can put a dollar into PPC and I get two dollars out, I’m gonna do that forever. Like it’s infinite money machine. Eventually you’re going to hit a point where you put in a dollar and you get out 50 cents. Once you do that, that’s when you launch DSP scale is high as you possibly can. Let’s say it’s 20, 30, 000, but there’s always going to be a point where. As soon as you put in another dollar into BBC, you’re not going to get 2 out. There’s always going to be like, there’s, there’s this point, whether it’s based on the query, whatever it is, you’re eventually not going to get out as much as you put it, that’s when you launch DSP. And then when you launch DSP, your conversion rates just generally rise, your PPC conversion rates rise. And it’s just ride the PPC train until you hit 20, 30 K a month. That’s it. And then you start to see a point where you don’t make as much money. And then at that point you launch DSP, both things raise, and that’s when you’re ready. If you can put in a hundred bucks to BBC and you get out 200 bucks, do that every time. But there’s gonna be a point where you put in a hundred bucks and you get out 50. That’s when you launch DSP
[00:00:11:40 – 00:00:11:48] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
And the reason it’s able to go farther than the ad console is because of the advanced targeting. Correct. Yeah. I mean, just because like sponsor display, like you can do retargeting, you can do a lot of these things, but it’s, it’s far less customizable in the sense of how many days do we look back?
[00:00:11:48 – 00:00:12:16] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
Can we negate purchases? Can we, like, if you’re going to spend one, two, 3, 000 a month, Just do it through sponsor display. As soon as the 5, 000 a month, Mark DSP makes way more sense. There’s just more control.
[00:00:12:16 – 00:00:12:20] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
What do those look like? The, the specifics that you can target.
[00:00:12:20 – 00:00:14:24] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
So I would say that’s, that’s a big piece of it, right? Is retargeting is only really retargeting. If you can negate people that already bought the attribution is a lot better. I would say, because the main question, right? Like between. between sponsor display and between DSP is that if it’s a view through attribution, how many of these are real? Like if, if they didn’t click, like, how do I know this person actually was introduced to my product via this ad and then bought via the ad they were served? That’s the main issue. Right. So one way that we can do that on DSP that Sponsor Display doesn’t have access to is, A, you negate purchases, right? Like, within Sponsor Display, you can’t do that. So, ultimately, somebody buys your product and you’re still serving them ads for 7 14 days after they bought the product, which is a huge waste of money. A lot of the times people use AMC for targeting reasons, right? Which is this person added to cart and only gate purchases and I’ll serve them ads. I usually use AMC actually for negation. Like if this person already viewed my product and they added it to cart and they didn’t buy it, I’m not going to serve them ads because they ultimately probably a good reason they didn’t buy the product. They bought something else. I know that these sound like trivial, Minor things, but at the end of the day, when you’re doing this in scale, it’s not, I don’t know. Most people use AMC for abandoned car audiences. I use them for negation and I use or basically just finding audiences that if they’ve been exposed to my product, they haven’t already made a decision to not buy it because if they’ve made that decision, they bought something else. It’s a waste of an impression, in my opinion. I’d rather serve an impression to somebody that’s never seen my product before, versus somebody that has adequately made a decision they didn’t want to buy it.
[00:00:14:24 – 00:00:14:29] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
By AMC, are you talking about brand tailored promotions?
[00:00:14:29 – 00:00:14:31] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
Amazon Marketing Cloud,
[00:00:14:31 – 00:00:14:35] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Amazon Marketing Cloud. Okay. So what is Amazon Marketing Cloud?
[00:00:14:35 – 00:00:17:28] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
So Amazon Marketing Cloud is a data aggregation, System that Amazon put out a couple of years ago. Typically you only could access it if you already used Amazon DSP. Recently, they rolled it out to make it more, I guess, accessible to the masses. Okay. The marketing cloud is essentially. Originally you had to know how to like run Python. scripts in order to use it. Now they’ve made it more accessible. So Amazon American clouds, basically, if you’re running Amazon PPC and Amazon DSP, they live in two totally different ecosystems. Amazon Marketing Cloud, the immersion token, which is an identifying token that utilizes your seller central account. It can pull the data together. So like how many people are looking at a DSP ad and then clicking a PPC ad and then buying. You don’t really have access to that data due to the fact that Amazon DSP lives completely outside of Amazon PPC, Seller Central, how you combine the data and tell me like, what is like, what is my DSP ad exposure doing to my PPC conversion rate? You don’t really have an answer to that question. Amazon Marketing Cloud is how you answer that question. Okay. What’s my, like my conversion rate based on just a PPC ad is let’s say 10 percent versus somebody that saw a DSP ad and then clicked a sponsored product ad it’s. 40%. So that tells me that the upper funnel awareness tactics that I’m using on DSP are actually impacting my PPC conversion rate. And how else do you know that? Like you’re just guessing. So Amazon Marketing Cloud AMC is how you actually understand this information. It puts it everything together. It puts everything together for you. So you can honestly just put your ad dollars in the right place. That’s the whole point. And you could only access AMC through Amazon DSP demand side platform. Amazon has so many goddamn acronyms. I know, but you only used to be able to access it through Amazon DSP. Like if you had a DSP seed, you could get Amazon AMC access, and then you could see it. Amazon has very recently allowed AMC access. Rue seller central. So now even if you’re not running Amazon DSP, you can get access to Amazon marketing cloud and you don’t have to understand SQL queries. Cause I sure don’t. And that was originally the, I would say the big barrier was, I didn’t know how to write SQL queries and that was the only way to use it on AMC and now you can use it without it.
[00:00:17:28 – 00:00:17:44] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Okay. Very interesting. And now it has a, a visual user interface that you can access and see the data. Even, even if you’re not using DSP, you can see the data for your Amazon ads that you’re running, sponsored product and all that.
[00:00:17:44 – 00:00:17:48] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
Yeah, that they just came out with that. Like I would say two months ago.
[00:00:17:48 – 00:00:17:54] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Okay. Very nice. I will have to dig into that and check it out. See what kind of data.
[00:00:17:54 – 00:00:18:08] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
Like I think so many people, they are really excited about AMC and they pull all the data and they don’t make any changes based on that data. So it’s only use it if you’re actually going to use it is my best piece of advice.
[00:00:18:08 – 00:00:18:19] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you can get, uh, information overload and if you don’t have to bit the ability to parse that data and actually use it, right.
[00:00:18:20 – 00:00:18:40] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
It’s like, okay, here’s my lifetime customer value. Here’s my customers live. Here’s how much they buy. It’s like, this is so fun. But if you don’t make any changes based on that, then it’s. Worthless data. So use it, but only if you’re going to use it, otherwise you’re just wasting your fucking time. And that’s my take.
[00:00:18:40 – 00:00:18:50] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Yeah. Makes sense. And that’s, uh, you know, kind of good advice for, for anything, you know, only learn what you have to learn.
[00:00:18:50 – 00:00:19:25] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
ASP, AMC, there’s so much fun data in there, right. But you have to act on it or it’s just fun data and you’re wasting your time. And you’re like, Okay, here’s where my, the majority of my customers live in California. Great. And then you do nothing based on that. Why did you learn that? No reason. If you would just bids based on the fact that your conversion rates hired in California. So you’re bidding more in California. You used AMC data correctly. Congrats. That’s great. But it’s just, don’t waste your time.
[00:00:19:26 – 00:00:19:34] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
You can do that type of targeting in DSP, right? Target people by state and can you do city and ownership? Get that in there.
[00:00:19:34 – 00:00:20:22] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
The same as Google ads. You can go by zip code, like you can do whatever you want. Like I used to run DSP ads for, uh, LA metro and we had to just target LA county. And it was, you know, it was display ads within this area. It’s just, it’s. There’s so many options available and there’s so much data available. It’s just don’t waste your time pulling all this data that you’re not going to make changes based on that data. Like I can pull a state by state analysis for you based on conversion, right? I’m happy to, but if you don’t want to adjust budget based on whatever states are converting, then what are we doing here? Like you got to make changes based on the data that you pull or you’re wasting your time.
[00:00:20:22 – 00:00:20:41] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Yeah, you know, I’m thinking about, uh, you know, I like to fish, right? So I could see a fishing company riddly using that state by state data because certain baits are going to be used more or less in certain states. So you can really target those areas.
[00:00:20:41 – 00:00:21:31] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
A hundred percent. And the thing is, you can use this data. It’s very usable. It’s just, you have to use it or it’s not, there’s no sense in pulling it. Like I can tell you which fish are predominantly caught in which state and what type of date those fish like, you could use that to use that bait within those States to catch those fish. Or you can just say, that’s a neat fact. And you could just continue with whatever you’re doing. And it’s like, I’m going to not love the fact that I pulled that data for you. If you’re not going to use that bait within those states to catch those fish. It’s like the data is so valuable. It’s just so many people like the data, but they don’t use the data. Yeah. Yeah. I think pulling data for people that is usable, that they don’t use.
[00:00:21:31 – 00:00:21:40] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Yeah. And I think a lot of times people have good intentions, but it takes work to use that data and you actually have to initiate it.
[00:00:20:41 – 00:00:22:24] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
So. It’s just, I’m happy to pull that data, but like, let’s use this data, right? Like we might as well, like, here’s the, here’s the example of how we can use this data. Let’s do it. Otherwise it’s just data. That’s what it is. That’s what Amazon marketing cloud is, is I would say 60 to 70 percent of people pull the data. They love it. They’re so interested in it and they make no changes. Yeah, for sure. I can imagine. It’s a tool. It’s not, it’s not an end all be all. It’s a tool. So you pull the data. There’s a lot you can do with this data, but you have to do it. And if you don’t, then we might as well not pull the data. That’s, that’s my whole take.
[00:00:22:24 – 00:00:22:37] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Now the, the data in Amazon Marketing Cloud, is that solely data related to your ad spend? Or is that Overall, all of Seller Central and Amazon. com platforms
[00:00:22:38 – 00:00:23:56] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
Pretty much everything, dude, like they, they can really. aggregate everything like DSP impressions, PPC clicks organic, like based on brand searches, like they can really, it all depends on how you use it again. And through tech partners, it’s a very usable tool, right? So like I use X Mars currently I used to use pack view and even a dummy like me can use. AMC, but without a tech partner, you have to be able to run SQL queries to understand like how to pull the data. Amazon Marketing Cloud in and of itself is a developer driven, query driven platform, but through tech partners, you can make it easy. You can make it done for people like me. So it works out overall, but it’s not super easy. And even when you work through a tech partner, you have to kind of know what you’re looking at, I would say. So like AMC is a very powerful tool, but you really, you need to want it. And you need to know how to use it before you even tap into it, because you can get access to it and you can just do nothing. And that’s, I would say what people do.
[00:00:23:56 – 00:00:24:01] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Yeah, yeah, I’m sure information overload and then just lack of action.
[00:00:24:01 – 00:00:24:23] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
Too much going on and then you just don’t do anything like I’ve been there a million times like I can do 500 things in this and I choose to do nothing so it’s like don’t bother unless you really want to dive in and like figure out. How to utilize AMC for your company’s best interest. Don’t touch it until you’re ready.
[00:00:24:24 – 00:00:24:45] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Yeah, for sure. Okay. Very good. So we kind of touched on, you know, who should use DSP. Uh, you know, typically once you reach that point where your increased ad spend is just not showing results anymore. Um, is there any other, um, things that you would look at for who should not use it or who should use it?
[00:00:24:45 – 00:00:27:51] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
100 reviews, 100%. If you don’t have at least one product with a hundred reviews, do not touch it. I would say scale PPC, PPC spend to at least 10, 20 K. I usually like to offer. Operate DSP at around 25 to 30 percent of PPC spend. And I don’t like to launch DSP until they can afford at least 5, 000 a month. So by some simple math, math that tells me 25 to 30 K a month in PPC spend before that point, just scale PPC easy once you’re at 30 K. If you feel like you could spend another 5k on PPC and get out bottom line, another three K.Scale it till you’re losing money. Like you’re just like, why not? If you could spend another 3k and your bottom line adds another 2k, do it. As soon as you don’t think you could add another 5k to your budget and you’re going to get more on the bottom, not the top launch DSP, it’s usually around the 20 to 30 K a month and PPC mark. We start at five. See how it does, see how your overall top line bottom line does, scale to 10 and we go from there. At the end of the day, like if you’re putting money into something and your bottom line is continuously growing, do that until it stops. Right, like if I’m pulling a slot machine and I’m making money every time I put a dollar in, I’m gonna do it until I stop making money. That’s just, that’s just how it works. But at a certain point, when you’re, when you’re investing additional money into PPC, there’s going to be a point when your bottom line hurts top line might not, but there’s going to be a point, right? Like whether it’s 50 K, whether it’s a hundred K, whether it’s 6 million a month, there’s going to be a point where that incremental money that you’re putting into the PPC. Is not going to make you more money. It’s just the truth. Otherwise it’s an infinite money machine and everyone put in 6 million and they make 12 million. Like it’s just, there’s a point where the accrued revenue tailors off. That’s when you launch DSP. And for most brands, I would say it’s somewhere around the 20 to 30 K mark. A month on PPC, some brands lower, some brands higher, whatever. But as soon as you start to see that you’re putting in a dollar and you’re only getting out in your bottom line 75 cents and you’ve invested everything you can into PPC. That’s when you launch DSP. That’s where I come in. We retarget, we do, like, depending on your overall customer lifetime value, let’s say it’s a CPG brand, we can do product purchasing, marketing, cross selling. There’s a lot of shit we can do. But, I don’t rec like, if you’re putting a dollar in and getting two dollars out, do that until you stop getting two dollars out. Like, there’s no reason to not. As soon as you stop making additional incremental revenue, there’s That’s where I come in and we help you on both sides.
[00:00:27:51 – 00:00:28:06] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Is there anyone that should not use DSP regardless? Okay. So that’s, that’s pretty much the main metric, the reviews and the ad spend, otherwise you might say that.
[00:00:28:07 – 00:00:29:00] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
Okay. So sub a hundred views. Don’t touch it ever. If you have a product, let’s say that has 2000 reviews and you’re launching a new one that has 200, we can target people that have bought that and serve them your new product because they’re not going to be reviewed. That’s fine. But if your premier product is sub a hundred reviews. Do not touch DSP. There’s no reason to it’s absolutely not worth your time. Yeah. All the time that don’t have a product over a hundred reviews and even a hundred is low. Like we want a thousand is ideal, but 500 is. That’s when we know that we’re going to do well. So that it’s, it’s low, man. It really, I’ve turned a lot of brands away that are excited about it, but they should scale BPC more and they should scale their reviews more first. Everytime.
[00:00:29:00 – 00:00:29:06] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Okay. So are there, what other kind of cool targeting is there that we haven’t talked about?
[00:00:29:07 – 00:00:34:10] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
Well, what I will say is that like, I’ve audited a bunch of DSP accounts over the years, right? And the most, like the classic way to use DSP is retargeting. Easy enough. Like you viewed it in the last 1430 days. You didn’t buy easy purchase within the category, whatever. And they use a lot of, uh, in market and lifestyle audiences, which I don’t touch ever, like very, very few occasions, like the brand spending a hundred, 200 K a month, all use Amazon’s pre created audiences. Sure. Because you need to scale spend and those are big audiences. But outside of that, I don’t touch those because you can make them yourself. Like you give me a list of Brands that you compete with brands that are similar to you. Give me a list of those ASINs. I will create an audience based on views purchases, and we can manage it ourself versus Amazon has an in market audience for protein. They don’t tell you what goes into that. So I use 99. 9 percent pre like custom curated audiences. That’s that’s number one. I would say the number two is. I think people sleep on contextual targeting, which Amazon’s continuously rolling out new ways to contextually target potential customers. And what I mean by that is it’s not always necessarily what have you bought and what have you purchased in the past. Custom look back 14, 30, 90 days. What are you looking at now? Right. So like, I can say this guy looked at my product or he looked at my competitor’s product in the last 30 days. So I can say with some relative certainty that He prob like let’s use protein powder as an example. I can say with some relative certainty that he probably works out. So I will serve him an ad for 90 days or 30 days or whatever it is after him looking at this product, because I think he’s in my market. Or I can serve him an ad in real time when he’s browsing fitness related things. Cause like, all right, like, sorry, I’m going to go full, just tinfoil out here, but just Just bear with me.So I’m a fitness guy. I work out every day, but if I’m looking at presents for my mom or dad for Christmas, I’m not super interested in protein at that time, right? I’m looking at like weird little knickknacks for my dad. And if I get an ad for protein, like I don’t give a fuck about that. I’m not going to be like, Oh wow, actually that protein looks great. I’m going to click on that. Like. It’s like they know who I am, but it’s like browsing behavior, in my opinion, is so relative that I know what this person is browsing now. And that’s why I’m such a firm believer in contextual targeting within the DSP. And what that means is they take the product that you’re serving and they will serve you an ad contextually based on what you’re looking at right now. Right. So like, let’s say my client sells amino acids. Right. And I have another person that’s browsing protein. The amino acid will show up on the protein page. And if I’m browsing supplements, that matters to me. Even if I haven’t looked at that product, that matters to me. Because I am looking at shit that’s going to make me healthier, make me look better. So, an amino acid product is going to be really relevant to me at this point. Versus, I could have looked at that exact amino acid two weeks ago. And I could be browsing a knickknack page for my dad. I don’t give a fuck about that thing at that time. Right. So like, that’s why to me, contextual targeting so important is I have to like argue with clients sometimes, because they’re like, I want to show, I want to show my product to anyone that’s looked at in the past 30 days. I’m like. No, you should show them when they’re browsing your category. Like you might know protein and I’m going to show it to them when they’re browsing amino acids. I don’t want to show it to them when they’re browsing fucking, I don’t know, rings for their mom or like, I don’t know, like knickknacks for their dad. Like whatever it is, it’s just. It’s not on their mind. So they’re not going to click on it. So like, that’s where most people fuck up, frankly, annoying more than anything. And I’ll get off my soapbox, but like, that’s, that’s generally my take is that people spend way too much time worrying about who and not when I buy a lot of weird shit for my dad. But if I’m shopping protein, I’m not. Worried about that. Like it would take a hell of a product to like, get me off of the thought train that I’m currently on and get me onto this one. So let’s hit them when they’re thinking about what we’re doing. Let’s do that.
[00:00:34:10 – 00:00:34:56] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Yeah. You know, that makes me think of a story I read about, uh, advanced targeting that target uses for its customers and the story was about a dad. Who had a, you know, a younger daughter. I think she was maybe 16, 17, 18, something like that. Uh, but all of a sudden she got, uh, a magazine, uh, from target in the mail. Trying to sell her baby stuff like diapers and supplements and formula and all that stuff. And so he went to target and got all mad about it and come to find out the daughter didn’t even know, supposedly that she was pregnant, but she was pregnant and target knew it before anyone else.
[00:00:34:56 – 00:00:36:59] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
Well, that’s, that’s actually crazy. And I also like, I’ve, I’ve been such a tinfoil hat guy about like, I say something and then I see that shit in an ad, but in reality, it’s like coming from somebody that’s run ads for such a long time, it’s not only the products you’re shopping, but who are the people around you looking at and what are the products related to those things? And that’s why you get ads. So it’s like, I buy all my supplements and whatever as the douchebag I am on Amazon, right? And that’s why I get ads on Facebook for fitness stuff. It’s just that’s the truth or like let’s say One person knows they’re pregnant and the other person does not they’re just like there’s a lot of HIPAA violations with that so like I I do have questions about the specifics with this because i’ve run a I’ve run ads for a lot of companies that have a lot of issues with that type of shit So this this is all questionable, but High level. You might be looking up gifts fit within one category for somebody else. Right, so you’re gonna get ads that fit within that category. You text that person a lot, they’re gonna get, like, it’s just, it’s this weird interconnected web. I personally have no problems with it just due to the fact that if I’m gonna get ads, which I am, I might as well get ads that I give a fuck about that I that, that are interesting to me. I’m interested in that. Like, I’m gonna get ads for clothing. I might as well see clothing I like. That’s how I feel. But, a lot of people feel very violated by this concept, and I understand why they feel that way. And I do think there’s some degree of listening, probably just, I’ve seen shit that I cannot explain, you know, and all my friends come to me and ask me, because they’re like, you’re in digital advertising. Like, are they listening to us? I’m like, I don’t think so, man, but I don’t know for sure. Like, I, Seems sometimes like they are that.
[00:00:36:59 – 00:00:37:18] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Yeah, well, they don’t necessarily have to, to listen when they aggregate all the information together, because for example, let’s say me and you go get a coffee and then I go home and start looking something up. They can see that my GPS data was next to yours.
[00:00:37:18 – 00:00:38:12] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
We probably talked about my other point. You’re spot on. Like my other point is like, we don’t have to, like, I know you said something and then it seems like you popped up. Like with an ad that’s way too similar. But that being said, they’re tracking what we look up, what we browse. So like we talked about coffee, we typed in a coffee place on safari on Google maps, and then we went into a coffee place. Like it doesn’t mean they’re listening to us necessarily. It doesn’t mean they’re tracking us in some capacity, but it doesn’t mean they’re listening to everything we say. So you’re, you’re spot on with that. That’s usually what I tell my friends where I’m like, you don’t have to worry about what you say, but anything you put in your phone, you got to understand that some capacity is going to be tracked. And I’ve, I’ve honestly adapted to the fact that that’s okay. And that. I’m gonna get a bunch of ads, so I might as well get ads for shit I like.
That’s, that’s how I feel.
[00:00:38:12 – 00:00:38:59] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Yeah. Yeah. We’re getting a little bit off topic, but I seen another, uh, story. Uh, do you remember Foursquare, the app? Um, so they have basically turned into like a, A GPS tracking data company is how they make their money and he was talking to a news reporter and he pulled up on his tablet the data that he had access to and you could see little dots moving around on the tablet and he’s like see that dot there it’s coming over to the door and that and that’s that guy that’s coming into the shop right now it just has a number You know, so they don’t know the person per se, but he can real time see the people walking around with their phones in their pocket.
[00:00:38:59 – 00:00:39:33] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
And like, that’s, I, I understand both sides, honestly. Like, I’m on the advertising side of things, so I, like to serve ads to people that might be interested in the products that my clients sell. Like I, that’s, that’s my main point of interest, but I also understand as a private citizen that people are worried about their data, like, and people knowing too much about them, me knowing too much about them, frankly. So it’s, it’s an interesting, it’s an interesting topic at Thanksgiving dinner. I will tell you that.
[00:00:39:33 – 00:00:39:53] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Yeah. And it’s really about who, who has access to that real time data and how they can use it. For example, I’m someone who’s stalking someone and I have access to that real time data and I figure out whose number is who by sitting at your favorite coffee shop. Now I can track you around everywhere.
[00:00:39:54 – 00:00:40:36] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
Yeah, that’s a problem. And it’s like. It’s just from my perspective as an advertiser, I’m like, I know more about you so I can serve you ads. They’re going to be more interesting to you versus some bullshit that you don’t want to see. And if you don’t want to buy it, that’s okay. But you might as well see ads that are relevant to you, in my opinion. But as a consumer, I understand how. And that sort of information is just private, right? And like it, people could use it in the wrong ways potentially. So it’s weird being an advertiser and like truly seeing both sides of this thing. Like I really do. So it’s pretty bizarre.
[00:00:40:36 – 00:00:40:58] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
For sure. Yeah. Yeah. We could go down that rabbit hole for a long time. We can reel it back in. Is there any last things about Amazon DSP? What one thing that I just thought of, you mentioned that a DSP is something that can be used by non Amazon companies as well to market their product.
[00:00:40:58 – 00:00:44:55] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
So I have run Amazon DSP for brands that not only are not Amazon, but they’re not even e commerce and essentially like programmatic advertising is. audience based, right? And it’s browsing behavior based. It’s what you do on the internet in whatever capacity, right? So there’s like trade desk, which is the end all be all programmatic advertising platforms. And if you go to, I forget the website exactly, but it’s pretty funny. There’s a website you can go to that’ll tell you what categories you’re posted in for programmatic advertising platforms. Are you married? What state do you live in? What are you interested in? And when you look those things up, they’re all fucking wrong. Like, I looked it up. He told me I was married with three kids and all these things. And that’s what these programmatic advertising platforms use to target me with ads. Amazon is different due to the fact that it’s first party data and you’re using your browsing and viewing behavior. Yeah. Right. So like Amazon has really no way to be wrong about me because the shit I’m buying tells you a lot about me. Like if I’m buying a lot of proteins and amino acids, I care about fitness. If I’m buying a lot of, you know, accessories for a particular video game console, I own that video game console. Right. Versus your browsing behavior and like what you look up on Safari might be misleading because you’re you know, You’re curious. So you look up like what year was the PlayStation 5 Invented you might look it up. Even if you don’t have a PlayStation 5, but if you’re looking up PlayStation I don’t actually I don’t know so I’m making this shit up but PlayStation 5 covers whatever it is You can say with some relative certainty that I own one, because why else would I look it up on Amazon versus Googling out of curiosity? So that’s why Amazon’s data, in my opinion, is so valuable. Now we’re a company, let’s say that doesn’t sell on Amazon where let’s use beach body right there. They sell video content to people that are interested in fitness, but they don’t actually sell products. They can go to trade desk and say, Hey, what people are Googling. Sit up routines, like whatever, whatever it is, or they go to Amazon and they say what people are buying protein powder, what people are buying amino acids, what people are buying, like all these products that actually sell this related shit to me tells me a much broader story of why they’re acting like it just says more when someone buys something than when they search something, right? Like you can search something for a hundred reasons. If you’re viewing and buying things on Amazon, that tells me with some degree of certainty that you. Are really invested in this thing. So that’s why a company like Beachbody can use Amazon DSP tap into in market audiences for protein and market audiences for amino acids, whatever it is, and they can serve their display and video ads. For people that are logged into that mobile device on, you know, they’re logged in on their phone or their computer or their TV, they can show them display and video ads because they know this person is actually like buying fitness related products on Amazon. So that it’s just to me, it’s, it’s more direct. Right? Like a lot of people are going to look up. How do I get a six pack abs? You can serve those people ads all day. But if you look, if you buy protein on Amazon, you’re probably a little more committed. Those are the better people to serve ads too. So. I get off my soapbox, but that’s generally like why I feel it’s such a valuable tool, like regardless of if you’re an e commerce company or not.
[00:00:44:55 – 00:00:45:05] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree with you on that because, you know, anyone can search how to get fit, how to get in shape.
[00:00:45:05 – 00:00:45:12] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
And are they going to buy your service? If you’re like, not necessarily, but if you’re buying protein, you’re kind of committed.
[00:00:45:12 – 00:00:45:22] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Yeah, yeah, you’re at least in the mode of spending money to try to give, whether you will or not, that’s another story, but you might drop a hundred bucks, whatever it is on Beachbody.
[00:00:45:22 – 00:00:45:42] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
You’re willing at least, you’re at least semi committed. That’s like all we need. It’s just the, the bucket of people that are interested in being hot is, It’s 10, 000, 000. The amount of people that are willing to invest a little bit of money is 1, 000, 000. So it’s like, let’s target them versus.
[00:00:45:42 – 00:00:45:49] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Yes. Yes. And we’re going into that, uh, buying spree here coming soon. So if I’m going to be going.
[00:00:45:49 – 00:00:45:59] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
January is like, if not, January is probably the busiest month of the year for me because we have so many. Like health fitness clients is great, but it’s, it’s definitely the busiest month of the year.
[00:00:45:59 – 00:00:46:08] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Yeah, I can imagine for sure. All right, Sam. Well, this has been a lot of fun. If people want to connect with you and reach out to you, how can they do that?
[00:00:46:09 – 00:00:46:34] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
So they can look up Sam Lee on LinkedIn, but there are a lot of Sam Lees on this planet. Yeah. Seen that a million times. A lot of them are in, you know, different countries in Asia. I am not. The best way would be sam.l@triviumco.com is my email. If you look up Sam Lee on LinkedIn and you scroll through the pages, you’ll eventually find me, but it’s, it’s a little bit difficult, but you’ll find me.
[00:00:46:34 – 00:00:46:40] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Very good. I’m just searching. Let’s see, Sam Lee Trivium
[00:00:46:41 – 00:00:46:44] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
If you look up Sam Lee Trivium, that’s a good way.
[00:00:46:44 – 00:00:46:54] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
Yeah. And you’re the first person that shows up. So there we go. Awesome. Sam, well, I appreciate the time. This has been fun.
[00:00:46:54 – 00:00:46:55] SAM LEE | VICE PRESIDENT OF AMAZON DSP
Likewise, brother. Thank you.
[00:00:46:56 – 00:00:46:57] TODD WELCH | HOST OF AMAZON SELLER SCHOOL
You have a great one.
[00:00:46:57 – 00:00:47:11] OUTRO
This has been another episode of the Amazon Seller School Podcast. Thanks for listening, fellow Amazon seller. And always remember, success is yours if you take it.
